Amusing Gambling

What is the order of suits from most valuable to least valuable?

Answer 1:

When playing games where the suit is used to determine the value of a “hand” then the order is traditionally SPADES, HEARTS, DIAMONDS, and CLUBS.

Answer 2:

Spades harts diamonds clubs this in not an order in witch a spade flush beats a club flush but when a new game starts or the force low(stud) are the same card 2of clubs is lower than the 2of diamonds.

Answer 3:

In poker, suits only matter in one instance bucko.  In a spread limit 7 stud game, with no ante, the low card has to make a “forced” bring-in bet. If there are two or more low cards (two deuces, three fours, two sixes, etc.) the suit of the low card determines which player has to make the forced bring-in bet. From low to high, the rank of the suits is clubs, diamonds, hearts and spades. The reason you use suits, as opposed to “first low card”, is that stud hands are always dealt clockwise from the dealer’s left, so the player sitting closest to the dealer’s left would always have to make the forced bet when there were two or more low cards of the same rank.

I was playing in a 1-5 7 stud game in Wendover, Nevadalast weekend and got told by the dealer that I had done a no-no.  Was I wrong or was he? There was a small pot ($4-6) and two players. The guy in seat one had 2s4s3s up and bet into the guy in seat 6 (who had checked). Guy in 6 says, “What has he got?” I mutter, “A straight flush.” The dealer
(correctly) says, “The 2, 3 and 4 of spades.” The to me he says, “You can’t say that until all 4 up cards are showing.” Then he goes on to say to me, “You can say the exact cards, but you can’t say what it might be.” I know _HE_ can’t, but is it true that _I_ can’t? I’ll admit that I should have kept my mouth shut, but I wouldn’t have thought it was a rule. This seems totally bizarre to me.  Am I up in the night? I normally don’t EVER comment on hands I’m not involved in, but was what I said a breach of etiquette?

Answer 1:

It was more than that. You violated the “one player to a hand rule.”  It is not your responsibility to point out what the player asking the question might have. Traditionally in stud (at least at the lowest limits), the dealer announces “possible straight” or “possible flush” onSixth Street(four up cards). It is *never* correct to announce “possible straight flush” since that could convey information that is not apparent from the board (whether or not the cards necessary to complete the straight flush have been discarded).

Answer 2:

At Foxwoods, they shoot you for that. Speculation on possibilities is a no-no… if the player can’t see it, no one should tell him. Regardless as to my personal thoughts on the issue, them seems to be the way the game is played… and. so long as there’s still betting to come, YOU would only be speculating.

Answer 3:

Although you have correctly explained the application of the “one player to a hand” rule in this instance, you have extended the analysis too far. in 7-card stud, if the local card room rules require the dealer to announce all possible straights and flushes (and it’s not traditional – it’s either a house rule or it isn’t), and if a player’s board cards constitute four-fifths of a straight-flush,  then the dealer is obligated to say, “possible straight;
possible flush; possible straight-flush.” under your explanation, if (for example) all four of the sixes and all four of the jacks had been exposed during one hand, and if a player were showing 7-8-9-10 onboard, the dealer would *not* say, “possible straight.” However, that is too heavy an obligation to place upon the dealer’s shoulders. The dealer has enough to do so that he should not be charged with tracking cards, too.

The game (4-8) is very aggressive–two hands ago someone raises pre-flop with Q5o, and two hands before that someone raises pre-flop with K8s. If you are holding black aces or kings in early position, and the betting is capped with three opponents and the flop comes down 9d 8d 7d, how do you play? Check and fold? Bet out and hope to win the pot? How about the same, but with a flop of 9-8-7 rainbow?

Answer 1:

Personally, I would bet heavily, and try to take it here, defending your heavy pair. About the only real hand I would fear is 10 J. One would hope people would not be staying in on a pre-flopped capped betting situation with the low end to that straight, and especially a split. Also, I suppose, you could put one of these on 77, 88, or 99, but I’d play aggressively again, to defend those pocket rockets, or Kings…

Answer 2:

Four people see the flop even with capped betting; you have to assume that at least two of them have legitimate hands (Unless the entire table is maniacal). If you are first to act, bet. If you are raised, then you have the dilemma. I would call the raise, fold to a re-raise behind you, and see the turn. If you don’t improve (Or the board becomes even scarier), then I would fold on the turn. With either flop (but especially with the suited flop) you are essentially even money to an underdog.

Answer 3:

Here’s the wisdom of Bob Ciaffone. Take one off and see where you stand. Think for a second exactly how many ugly cards can hit on the turn. On the suited board it’s a lot. Any J, T, 9, 6, 5, or heart (6). That’s
25 cards out of 47. On the rainbow board it’s 19 out of 47. If you get a safe card then you can re-evaluate and decide if you are ahead.

10-20 holdem. The game is mostly mediocre players that play somewhat too many hands and play too passively. 5-6 people see most un-raised flops. I hold 6s3s in the small blind. Six limpers, I call and the BB checks. The flop is K93, three suited with no spades. I check, BB checks, UTG bets, three other callers, and I call. BB folds. A six hits the turn, putting a 2-flush on board, and giving me two pair. Bet out?

Answer 1:

Well first of all… You shouldn’t have called after the flop; i will get into that later. But, since you did, check and call. The 6 would look harmless to a king and the person holding a king will bet it. If you know the way UTG plays and you don’t think he has a set, punish the person with the flush draw if someone calls by making a value raise. That is how you will win the most bets with the hand. If a three flush comes just check and fold… in that type of game there will be many moneymaking opportunities. Make the most of them!! In a loose passive game there is no reason to take the worst of it that bad.
Let your opponents make those calls and just show them the best hand every time and you will win close to 4 bets an hour on the average against those type of opponents!!

Answer 2:

If I bet the turn and UTG raised, that would knock out hands like QJ/JT/QT/T9/98, and even K-weak. My hand is very vulnerable and I want those hands out. The risk is that UTG will just call, the bet won’t narrow the field, and I would lose the extra bets from the check-raise. And why shouldn’t I call one bet on the flop with bottom pair? The pot already has 12 bets, and I would win several more bets by the river if I made my hand on the turn. I have five outs, and if they don’t get there I can easily muck on the turn unless the pot becomes large enough to justify a call there also.

Answer 3:

Why shouldn’t I call one bet on the flop with bottom pair”? First of all UTG bets out on the flop and gets three other callers”. It would be safe to assume that there is at least one K out there and possibly two. UTG probably has K, 10. Why put yourself in a position where you are doing battle up-hill.  I do not think the pot with 12 big bets in it justifies a call with bottom pair. Speaking about playing to many hands 6, 3 in the SB is definitely a questionable call. I think your call with bottom pair on the flop is even worse. 6, 3 is easily a dominated hand that can cost you a ton of money. What are you hoping to accomplish? You basically need to flop a full house or at least a set in order to stay in.

Can anyone please settle this debate? Regarding a full house AAA/KK) He calls this hand “A boat, Aces over Kings”, whereas I would call it “A boat, Aces full of Kings”  To me, Aces over…would denote 2 pair.
Are both acceptable?  He says it may be a regional difference as he is in CA, and I am but a simpleAL girl. Anyone?

Answer 1:

You are right, the word “over” implies 2 pair to me also, almost as much as the word “up”, as in “aces up”. But once you say the words “boat” or “full”, i think “over” is acceptable in that neither of those words can be construed to mean just two pair. To me, your phrasing is better and more accurate, but his is acceptable.

Answer 2:

This reminds me of a hand I played very early in my poker “career”.  I was in the 3 seat in a 2-4 holdem game at the Taj.  At the end of the hand, I had trip A’s!  The guy at the other end of the table (7 seat) tabled his hand.  I couldn’t see it very well. The dealer said, “Kings over 10s”. I thought that meant “Kings *full of* 10s” and I mucked my hand!!  DOH! Learned two lessons: (1) Be sure you can *see* the other guy’s hand, and (2) If you have a decent hand, *turn it up*! And let the *cards speak* for themselves.

Answer 3:

It’s either a full house aces over kings, a full boat aces over kings, aces full of kings, or aces full. I’ve heard them all in AC. when dealing with a full house, the rank of the pair doesn’t matter, only the rank of the trips, so I’ve settled on saying aces full. Of course, I haven’t had to say that in over a year. Why would either of the below terms be unacceptable?  For two pair, I have always heard it called Aces up, not over.  I’ve heard the over used once or twice in AC for the full house.

I play low limit hold’m (4-8 or 1-4-8-8) inBiloxionce or twice a month (2 hour drive). Therefore, much of my work on my game is through extensive reading and by IRC play. My question “Do you just play your best game on IRC or do you practice varying strategies depending on parts of your game that you think need some work?” A directly related question is “Do you think IRC play is realistic enough to use as a learning tool? For low limits? For medium/high limits?” Finally, wasn’t there a suggestion for sending chips (or money) to the creator’s of IRC and GPKR to show our appreciation for their good work?

Answer 1:

Extensive reading is good. Keep it up in moderation. Use good lighting to avoid hurting your eyes. Use good books to avoid hurting your brain & wallet. Nearly so. The ether nature of IRC bucks tends to turn some players into “one call/raise too many” type of gamb00lers. It’s a factor to be reckoned with, but not a factor upon which one should make major adjustments in play. Note that IRC is very different from other ether buck online poker games. It is obvious that IRC players lack the total abandon of wits so common with Yahoo or Hoyle players. The reason is probably in somewhat family’s nature of IRC, where players get to know each other after a while and try to avoid looking like an idiot holding stupid cards. BTW, I’d really love to see an option to muck facedown on IRC, as sometimes I wish my opponent would bet on the river so
I can fold my trash in a dignified way. “What did I have? Oh, a flush draw with two over cards, but I just don’t suck out people the way you do…  Huh? The board was a rainbow? I see. Did I say flush draw? I meant an open ender, a straight draw… No, no, they were over cards over the middle card, see… yeah, I know, I know, the pot was pretty small, I agree, but this was an implied odds situations, see… I know we were heads up, yeah, but, you’re an inquisitive fucker, you know that?” Your idea to use IRC as a testing ground is probably not very practical, as we have a much better tool for doing that in the form of Turbo. It’s difficult to imagine someone hanging on IRC for thousands of hours needed to provide any kind of reliable results. As for the opponents, it looks like they often try to play their best games, as when the lineup is right, games can be as tight as Doug Grant’s ass (BTW, expect a DG post about system hucksters and bot-employees on ircpoker sometimes soon, you know, the stuff about not being able to beat the rake on IRC… and remember, him posting is NOT what’s annoying, it’s all the replies…), especially in 20-40 game or higher. This is the only example I know of where the absence of money stakes do not ruin the game. It’s obviously an ego thing, one’s score and statistics being available to anyone’s scrutiny. There are exceptions, mind you, playing for marbles does not offer enough challenge for some players to take the game seriously. Gary C. comes to mind here, as he is apt to make moves on IRC that just don’t cut the mustard in real life, no offense,Gary. Tournament play on IRC is a different beast. It does NOT resemble RL play. The fear of losing all the chips simply isn’t there, and the short blind-doubling formats and a ridiculous number of players at the table make irc tournaments kind of special. There’s nothing remotely close to an IRC no limit tourney in RL. That’s why I’m doing OK on irc tourneys, I guess. I shit my pants once in a RL tourney. On a related topic, I learned this the hard way: As busted out players automatically get a new bankroll, raises from nearly all-in players should NOT be taken seriously. They tend to jam the pot with speculative holdings in order to put themselves out of their misery as soon as possible and start a new ircpoker life. Call all raises from nearly all-in players. Absolutely! It’s the second best low cost learning method. The no. one method is as follows: Crank up Turbo and play with all the opponent’s cards face up. It’ll make you think. It’ll make you understand why it’s goot to fold JKo to an early pre-flop raise.

Answer 2:

I have noticed one thing that usually happens when I do that though.  Some of y’all might be able to learn from it.   When I do one of my little manic routines I’ll sometimes lose 1000 chips before it’s over, but usually I don’t lose more than a couple hundred when I do that.  But, there is almost always a player or two who will lose a couple of thousand trying to chase me or out-maniac me. They don’t lose it to me, somebody else will pick them off.  This happens a lot in the 20/40 channel (H2).   What it suggests to me is that some of y’all that say you have trouble when a maniac is at the table don’t really know what to do. Don’t go after him with a weak hand — there are other players at the table and they will chop you right off.

Answer 3:

This is a great idea! I am sure Greg has nothing better to do then rewrite GPKR2.0. Maybe we can add an “I want to see his cards” Button so layers have the option of seeing any called hand at the river. Then we could add a “Please call the Floor” Button to settle the disputes which arise when players not in the hand keep asking to see the losers holdings. Then of course we need a “Security to #Tourney”Button to  escort the unruly players who cant deal with the Floors decision(Are you reading this _j)?

What is the rule for hold’em on 2 people with the same two pairs?Splitpot or highest kicker wins pot? Example: Player 1 has A-J and Player 2 has A-9 the board reads A-5-8-8-2 both have Aces and Eights. Does it make any difference if they have two pair and the board is not paired?

Answer 1:

The highest kicker wins the pot in your first example (AJ would win over A9). Also, in your example if the board has a higher kicker than either in the hands, it would be a split pot…example:
Player A: AJ
Player B: A9
Board   : A K 8 8 2
Both have Aces and eights, the K on the board plays as kicker-split pot. If each has two pair and the board is not paired, it depends on the ranks of each pair..Examples.

Player A : A7
Player B : K7
Board    : A K 7 xx
The A7 would beat the K7

Player A: A7
Player B: A9
Board   : A 9 7 xx

In this case, it goes to the rank of the second pair, so the Aces and nines would beat the Aces and Sevens

Player A: AJ
Player B: AJ
Board   : A J x x x

This would be a tie, they both have aces and jacks, and the highest card on the board (Other than A or J) would play as the kicker.

Answer 2:

In your example the AJ would win the pot because the best five cards play. If the board were A-Q-8-8-2  these two hands would split the pot because they both would have Aces and eights(dead men) with the board’s Queen kicker.

Answer 3:

In your example, the AJ would win over the A9 since the J is a higher kicker. If the board had a card higher than both the kickers in the players hands, then the board would play and it would be a split pot, i.e.:

Player A: AJ
Player B: A9
Board   : A K 8 8 2

This would be a split pot, both have Aces and eights, with a King kicker. In the other case, it depends on the pair ranks. Examples:

Player A: AJ
Player B: KJ
Board   : A K J x x
Player A would win with the higher top pair (Aces and Jacks versus
Kings and Jacks)

Player A: A9
Player B: A8
Board A 9 8 x x
Player A would win. Both have an Ace pair, but the pair of 9′s is
higher than the pair of 8′s

Player A: A7
Player B: A7
Board   : A 7 x x x
This would be a split pot-both have two pair of the same rank, and the
board will play for the kicker.

I am extremely troubled by some of you saying that ethics is different at different levels. For example, the ethics of a $3-6 game is different from a $30-60 game. Please tell me why I have to be on my guard more for cheating or unethical behavior at higher limits. And please tell me why I can expect the utmost in ethical behavior the lower I go in limits. This postulation on the face of it is farcical, insulting and downright evil. If I am ethical, I am ethical in business dealings, at poker, whatever limit, and in any circumstance. If I am unethical, watch out for me at any level. Ethical is ethical is ethical, please. I have played many limits in my career, and have pushed pots away from me at all levels when they were mistakenly given to me, without regard to the limit. I am governed by ethics, which is one of the highest expressions of human behavior in society. If you don’t believe that, you are misplaced in civilization. By the way, I abhor the use of really dirty language by many who post here. Why not keep it on level that is not offensive to whoever is reading.

Answer 1:

I suspect those saying the ethics are different REALLY mean player’s ethical behavior differs as the stakes are increased. Clearly, you are correct about ethical behavior; the stakes shouldn’t matter. Ethical behavior is a pure concept meaning the same at all levels. Reality is different. Nobody REALLY wants to look in the mirror every morning and see a slime doggy. Most people probably perceive themselves as ethical even when it’s a
delusion. The money in a $3-6 game may not be enough to make an individual stray from the path of ethics, but a large pot in a $40-80 game might do the trick.

Answer 2:

It would be unethical to throw a punch at a ten-year-old kid on a playground, no matter who you are. It would not be unethical to throw a punch at a boxer if you were his
opponent. High stakes poker is, in many ways, a different game than low stakes poker. It’s much less of a social game, and the competence of the players is assumed to be much higher. Just like pick-up basketball is
very different from the pro version.

Answer 3:

There are different rules for different limit games. At the Bellagio, if you play higher than 30-60 you don’t have the right to see a called hand unless you suspect cheating and call the floor. You can’t simply ask out of curiosity. Low-limit players (some) don’t understand that, that is very rude. At the Commerce, if you play 100-200 you are dealt in regardless of whether or not you are seated at the table. What this says really, is that people at the higher limits have a better understanding of the procedures and they don’t need someone to hold their hand throughout a session. The lower-limit games are more chaotic, there is a much higher turnover rate, more multi-way pots, and more people acting slowly, more people confused about what they have. That is why they deal to the chips in the smaller games. The more experienced players should decide what is ethical when it comes to poker, not beginners. Those people that have been around 20 years and have seen it all, should decide what is acceptable ethical behavior. Beginners don’t make up the rules, well-respected tournament directors and poker minds collaborate on the rules and ethics of the game. Badger did NOTHING to compromise the rules or the ethics of a 540$ buying tournament. It is a serious tournament, and anyone who enters should have an understanding of the rules, as well as ethical behavior. But, like Badger said, if he was playing 1-2$ with a field of first-timers, an experienced player has a responsibility to try and speed up the game and help the newbies read their hands. I believe there are a different set of ethical rules for 3-6 and 100- 200, simply because the rules are just not the same. Oh wait here is another one. If you play 3-6 you get a free hand, anything higher you
have to post, because the advantage could be exploited.

I would like to take in informal poll of experienced Omaha/8 High-Low Split players. (Experienced meaning at least a couple of year of frequent play) On average, how many times (as a percentage of total hands dealt to you) do you see the flop in your typical play? I know that there are lots of variables such as how tight and loose
the other players are in any given game, etc. But, on average, how
many flops do you think you see:  10%?  25%? 50 % ??% –  in any given session?

Answer 1:

If it is a ten-handed game, you are more or less committed to at least 20% play in un-raised pots because you would be the blind twice. Consider that you might play almost anything on the button in an un-raised pot, that makes 30%. Now and then you pick up a real hand while utg or in mid position, and you can see how Omahapots add up. One of the great things about Omahais that so many players believe that almost any four cards can play. And after a few sessions of having
your ace-deuce, ace-three suited cracked by random hands you might start believing this too.

Answer 2:

I find that the more marginal the hand, the more important position is. In Omaha/8 I generally am playing for the nuts, so position isn’t that important. In hold’em a medium pair can win a nice pot if I’m in the right seat, so I tend to be more conscious of the table arrangement. I play both games eight handed with the same pool of perhaps twenty or thirty players. I would guess that the hold’em flops are seen by an average of three players, the Omaha/8 flops by an average five or six. (Omaha/8 games are played with either four- or five-card hands.)  Many of the Omaha/8 players are trying to adapt 7 stud/8 skills to the game and are playing too much stuff, Pre-flop action in Omaha/8 tends to be pretty passive except when novices are introduced to the game.  I think that Omaha/8′s additional passive players tend to diminish the importance of position in this game.

Answer 3:

I agree with both statements. The first holds true for any game. The second applies to O/8 and even more in low-limitOmahahigh from my experience. Good way to look at it for apples/apples comparison. In my games many play one game or the other exclusively. That said, there is much more pre-flop raising in hold’em thanOmaha. So, that leaves high limit O/8 vs. low-limit O/8.  I have a hunch there’s much more pre-flop raising in $20-$40 and up than in the passive $4-$8 game I play, thus position gains importance. If my good friend, Badger, can extricate his foot from his keyboard in the “Anything Can Happen” threads, maybe he can confirm.

Three times in the last week I’ve lost with aces to Ax off-suit. I know that A2, A3, A4, A5,  AT, AJ,AQ,AKall have better chances because of the straight draws but how much of a favorite are aces against a lone ace??? I’m pretty sure it’s a good indicator that you are running bad when these beats occur and it shouldn’t affect my play one bit but I am starting to get real frustrated and am looking for ways that I am going to get beat and playing like a whimp because I am now gun-shy. Any suggestions for getting out of this rut??????

Answer 1:

I have to tell you that when you play AA against someone with A– anything, You are a HUGE favorite. I believe it’s the worst position to be in. Something like a 10-1 underdog, and that includes hands like QQ over QJ or Q10. Not only are they playing with one card but have to hit 2 of them or make a straight or flush to win. So if this has happened to you 3 to4 times lately you are running bad. Patience will prevail over these bad beats.

Answer 2:

Look to the flip side. You were not likely heads up were you? AA wins ~60% against 3 opponents. You lose ~40% of the time. Losing three straight is no big deal and after you’ve lost the first one losing the next two will occur ~16% of the time.

Answer 3:

For A-A against A-x, the odds can range from as low as 6.50-to-1 against A-10-suited, up to a high as 15.89-to-1 against A-9-offsuit with the 9 in suit with one of the pair of aces.  And as for your “running bad,” SteadyEd O’s “patience” advice is good…